Previous Drifting Thoughts: A Discussion of Self Love

A few days ago I was chatting with Allen and we sort of come round about the discussion on the concept of love and self love. Although this is only part of the chat that we had, I think this portion has my arguments well formed enough to warrant a LJ post for my own reference. The user names are pretty self evident that no need for me to explain.

[Update @ 1:18am: This is the actual final version, been editing this error-prone log several times just now ^^||]

[Beginning of chat] (10:53:47) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: felix
(10:54:13) Felix Leong: hmm?
(10:54:45) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: umm just a thought, did u ever give u enough self love?
[Snipped to keep it short, but basically we noticed that we have read the same book before: John Gray’s How to Get What You Want and Want What You Have]
(11:38:06) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: another book from John Gray also give me some insight, Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus
(11:38:27) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: and i must say my mind running mostly on venusian mindset
(11:38:28) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: XD
(11:38:40) Felix Leong: haha ^^||
(11:39:09) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: hence being a bottom hahah!!
(11:39:28) Felix Leong: lol!
(11:42:16) Felix Leong: well… but it’s more of an emotional aspect than a physical one… or is it? ^^||
(11:42:34) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: yeah
(11:42:51) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: physical just going to the emotional ones
(11:43:00) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: to=with
(11:43:21) Felix Leong: probably
(11:43:47) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: well at least that is what i feel for me….what about you?
(11:44:31) Felix Leong: if it’s about the previous statement (note: see bolded statements): “may or may not be the case”
(11:45:09) Felix Leong: (somehow i did notice that i like to use words like these ^^||)
(11:45:56) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: maybe becuase either u are not sure or some doesn’t apply to you?
(11:46:48) Felix Leong: it’s more like… it’s sometimes the case, it’s sometimes not the case
(11:47:02) Felix Leong: but most of the time, it’s kinda hard to make them cooperate ^^||
(11:47:37) Felix Leong: they work on different sets of rules
(11:47:48) Felix Leong: well… rules as in those imposed by others and ourselves
(11:48:29) Felix Leong: it’s not hard to notice that sometimes… social rules and personal views on “rules” often clash with each other
(11:48:48) Felix Leong: ideally both physical and emotional should cooperate hand in hand
(11:48:55) Felix Leong: i.e. the perfect harmony
(11:49:10) Felix Leong: but it’s much easier to live with a split personality
(11:49:18) Felix Leong: that’s how i look at it
(11:49:50) Felix Leong: because it’s “socially convenient” for us to be split within ourselves
(11:50:11) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: as in multiple personality?
(11:53:53) Felix Leong: part of it
(11:54:18) Felix Leong: but it may take the form of just the typical “mask vs true self” scenario
(11:54:35) Felix Leong: a personality split of the inside
(11:56:53) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: true…i agree with that
(11:57:00) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: i have few mask of myself too
(11:57:43) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: and most of it just to protect and held myself back becoz i sacre of people’s judgement
(12:00:02) Felix Leong: if you think of it rhetorically, if not living what you wanted to live is part of “not loving yourself”, then should like “socially abiding” behaviour be consider as “self hate”
(12:00:19) Felix Leong: well, it’s also not an absolute argument
(12:00:32) Felix Leong: but just wanted to drive to the possible point
(12:00:41) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: i see i see
(12:01:19) Felix Leong: that what i mean by really understanding the concept of “love”
(12:01:49) Felix Leong: it’s not as easily distinguishable and manageable as Gray’s Love Tanks
(12:02:04) Felix Leong: but his metaphor is a good starting point to explore
(12:02:26) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: hmm… processing
(12:02:58) Felix Leong: the concept of “self” and the concept of “love” have to be seen separately
(12:03:20) Felix Leong: if you can’t understand either side of the equation, “self love” is not something that you can achieve
(12:03:37) Felix Leong: at least “knowingly”
(12:04:17) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: hmm…ur theory start to make sense…
(12:04:17) Felix Leong: you can either achieve it by innocence or enlightenment
(12:04:33) Felix Leong: at least that’s how i look at it
(12:04:44) Felix Leong: still an unproven theory on my part
(12:05:44) Felix Leong: Gray’s true essence has to be understood
(12:05:47) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: it’s true that at times u hving fun urself but u would still end up hoping the love from another
(12:05:51) Felix Leong: i.e. between the lines
(12:06:17) Felix Leong: but was the hope for “love” was really “love”?
(12:06:25) Felix Leong: that’s an important question
(12:06:45) Felix Leong: you expectation of the thing you perceive as “love” may not be “love” at all
(12:07:13) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: if it’s not love then what it is?
(12:07:25) Felix Leong: and once you really achieve it and you notice the fallacy (that that “love” is not really “love”), you’ll start to doubt yourself, really
(12:07:54) Felix Leong: “love”, from our perception, is not really “love” per se most of the time
(12:08:15) Felix Leong: as there’s many components of intangible nutrients that we wanted
(12:08:33) Felix Leong: “attention”, “care”, “protection”…
(12:08:53) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: hmm…there are words poping up my mind
(12:08:55) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: yeah!!!
(12:08:59) Felix Leong: “pleasure”, “achievements”, “lust”…
(12:08:59) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: ike those kind of words
(12:09:29) Felix Leong: there’s a lot of words that can be associated with the feeling of “love” yet they aren’t “love” per se
(12:09:54) Felix Leong: if you start to take apart these components, yet “love” doesn’t exist at all
(12:10:30) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: …speechless…
(12:10:36) Felix Leong: so… what is it that you’d call “love”?
(12:10:44) Felix Leong: it’s an interesting question to look into it
(12:11:11) Felix Leong: therefore, when we say we “love” something, you have to look deep into the relation
(12:11:57) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: hmm… a thought pop in my mind
(12:13:41) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: does it better to tell us and believe in we “love something, than look deep into it? since we tend to look into it and love wasn’t around, we’ll end up disappointed and distants, at least if we were to believe that love is there at least we able to “lie” that we are happy in love?
(12:14:13) Felix Leong: therefore… they say… search the meaning of “love” through your heart
(12:14:20) Felix Leong: it’s an old adage
(12:14:23) Felix Leong: cliche
(12:14:36) Felix Leong: but yet… love is something that is yet it isn’t, a paradox upon it’s own
(12:14:50) Felix Leong: therefore the enquiry
(12:15:05) Felix Leong: you can only prove the concept of love to yourself
(12:15:22) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: i see
(12:15:47) Felix Leong: i can’t prove that the meaning can be found
(12:15:54) Felix Leong: as i’m still searching the answer myself
(12:16:04) Felix Leong: but i know moments of it
(12:16:15) Felix Leong: at least that helps in my journey, i guess
(12:16:17) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: i think if we do ask all the married couples in town and 99% still don’t know what’s love
(12:16:35) Felix Leong: it may or may not be the case
(12:16:42) Felix Leong: it’s something of our own speculation
(12:16:48) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: i see
(12:17:22) Felix Leong: but… why bother if married people are really in “love” or not
(12:17:37) Felix Leong: you can’t even manage to find that answer yourself, you see
(12:17:57) Felix Leong: you have take care of your “exam grades” rather than drooling over other people’s achievements
(12:18:09) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: yeah
(12:18:41) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: as sweet as we look at people’s happiness, the lonely night is still cold and unbearavle
(12:19:43) Felix Leong: that’s the test…
(12:20:31) Felix Leong: “does it better to tell us and believe in we “love something, than look deep into it?

since we tend to look into it and love wasn’t around, we’ll end up disappointed and distants, at least if we were to believe that love is there at least we able to “lie” that we are happy in love?”
(12:20:41) Felix Leong: for one thing, beliefs are cheap
(12:20:56) Felix Leong: anybody can convince you to believe in something that may or may not exists
(12:21:12) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: hmm…
(12:21:20) Felix Leong: even now i’m preaching a “belief” upon you
(12:21:23) Felix Leong: believe it or not
(12:21:33) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: yeah
(12:21:35) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: i do
(12:22:13) Felix Leong: i can’t say for sure whatever i say here is my own experience or a belief system that i acquired
(12:22:22) Felix Leong: (after all the self help books)
(12:22:56) Felix Leong: but… if you had those moments of great ecstasy that you identified as “love”
(12:23:06) Felix Leong: it’s impossible to turn back
(12:23:25) Felix Leong: well… not until it’s proven to be an illusion, anyway
(12:23:31) Felix Leong: ^^||
(12:23:44) Felix Leong: but…
(12:23:52) Felix Leong: if the hypothesis is true that nobody love themselves
(12:24:01) Felix Leong: on the grounds of “mask vs true self”
(12:24:28) Felix Leong: then probably yes, “love” is very, very, very hard to come by
(12:24:36) Felix Leong: as it doesn’t exist most of the time around us
(12:24:44) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: u were saying?
(12:24:56) Felix Leong: and on the grounds that the hypothesis that “there’s people who really love themselves”
(12:25:23) Felix Leong: there’s three ideas that i presented to you just now, which one you need clarification
(12:26:13) Felix Leong: correction: and on the grounds that the hypothesis that “there’s people who really love themselves” does exists
(12:26:44) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: ok
(12:27:11) Felix Leong: pretty much everything is presented by logic, i suppose
(12:27:31) Felix Leong: been thinking too much in math equations, i suppose ^^||
(12:27:53) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: haha and yet think too much makes you unhappy too
(12:28:23) Felix Leong: true and not true at the same time
(12:28:45) Felix Leong: depends on your definition of “happiness” as well
(12:29:14) Felix Leong: and your perceived contribution of “happiness”
(12:30:33) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: lol we’ll it’s true that different people have different definition of love
(12:30:54) Felix Leong: but you can’t be sure whether their definitions were “right”
(12:31:13) Felix Leong: probably most of them don’t know whether is it “right” themselves
(12:31:29) Felix Leong: we are mostly on the assumptions that they are “right”
(12:32:02) Felix Leong: it’s not hard to prove the concept, really
(12:32:21) Felix Leong: when we see a couple passing by us, doing something that we have desired for
(12:32:40) Felix Leong: the moment we say that they are “loving”, we are imposing to ourselves the idea that they are right
(12:33:35) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: yeah
(12:36:58) Felix Leong: and the problem is… when we start to compare
(12:37:11) Felix Leong: as soon as they are right, we automatically assume that we are “wrong”
(12:37:15) Felix Leong: at least at some point
(12:37:35) Felix Leong: that’s why the draw on self-help books
(12:37:44) Felix Leong: we carry the assumption we are “wrong”
(12:37:51) Felix Leong: at least in some way or the other
(12:37:58) Felix Leong: well… which in a way is the “truth”
(12:38:10) Felix Leong: but it may or may not be blown out of proportion
(12:38:27) Felix Leong: as there’s no way that you can be “absolutely right”
(12:38:44) Felix Leong: or that you can be “rightfully wrong completely”
(12:39:14) Felix Leong: therefore i would say that’s it’s an “enquiry”
(12:39:39) Felix Leong: it’s good that you have an open mind and heart, and that you strive to improve yourself
(12:40:19) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: i guess what we afraid is to doubt urself
(12:40:38) Felix Leong: it’s easy to doubt yourself completely
(12:40:49) Felix Leong: it’s easy to trust yourself completely to a point of confidence
(12:41:00) Felix Leong: what we are really afraid of is being “wrong”
(12:41:10) Felix Leong: confidence = overconfidence
(12:41:41) Felix Leong: there’s nothing wrong doubting yourself, nor there’s nothing wrong trusting yourself
(12:42:33) Felix Leong: both are needed at different points of time
(12:43:34) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: i see…
(12:44:54) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: i guess i also afraid that i would fall into a hole of doubt myself again as it was so deep i lost my self-confidence and esteem…and i gradually climbing back up but scare to fall again
(12:45:29) Felix Leong: i have to say, the more self-help books you read, the more you’ll fall into doubt
(12:45:39) Felix Leong: but it’s an important aspect of grow
(12:45:41) Felix Leong: growth
(12:46:25) Felix Leong: although it’s much easier to doubt whether you got the “wrong” book
(12:46:27) Felix Leong: XD
(12:47:43) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: boy does love need a PhD
(12:47:44) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: lol
(12:48:51) Felix Leong: the thing is that no key spiritual figures ever had a PhD ;)
(12:54:17) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: as in those using inner success peoplr? :P
(12:54:47) Felix Leong: haha, true
(12:55:19) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: lol ok
(12:59:46) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: felix, hv u ever stuck with few priorities in life and you are unwilling to give up the lesser ones away?
(13:00:55) Felix Leong: hmm…
(13:00:58) Felix Leong: lemme think…
(13:01:43) Felix Leong: well… usually i don’t give up on whatever i had in mind
(13:01:58) Felix Leong: pretty much i find myself stuck over some of these things in the list
(13:02:47) ♪.59: Maiden of Tears: Gabriella: i see